Chapter 65

Reim Lunettes wrote:

It's true that someone must have been pregnant with Alice and "Alyss" but we don't know who yet. Lacie is a darn good guess, really, the best we have under the circumstances. As for the father, we'll just have to see!

If the twins’ mother is somewhere in the story, it HAS to be Lacie. Because, I mean, she is incredibly like them. [So much like them, I start asking myself if they aren’t all the same… :S]

LoneNecromancer wrote:

Rufus Barma wrote:

Audria, I think that although its a possibility that lacie was made pregnant at all, nothing like that may have actually happened. If so, I doubt it was Jack, and I'd think it to be Glen - Alice and Alyss look nothing like Jack to me

Whether they look like Jack is inconsequential. We have no idea just how much effect the Abyss can have on unborn children. If anything, you could say that the Abyss made Alice and Alyss resemble their mother more instead of the father because they look far too much like Lacie.

Somehow, I don’t think Jack would be the father, not because of his looks, but because it was Glen who kept Alice in a tower, not Jack. Glen seemed to have some kind of right over Alice. A right that Jack didn’t seem to rebel against (at least not until too late…and probably not for the better reasons as well as not for Alice's sake at all...). I really think Glen was the father… but who knows. I feel like I can’t be inclined about anything anymore.

OK, I’ll go now. I really have to put all this new information in order inside of my head.

@Precious-hair san I recall that Glen pretty much had a death wish (and also that he was more or less immortal). And I recall Jack saying he didn't want to kill "his best friend". It's possible that Glen agreed to be chopped up and sealed away. That might even be why he ordered the killings at Sablier (because supposedly dead bodies were needed to implement the curse). That was one way he could escape the world that he thought wasn't worth living, without Lacie.

There was probably a lot of deception going on 100 yrs ago. I'm looking to seeing what happens next!

(reposting from LiveJournal, so please don't take it personally if something comes off too aggressive or I go on an unrelated tangent)

Precious Hair - San wrote:

Then, Jack not only attacked Leo out of the blue, he also wants Oz to finish him!

I'm starting to think I'm the only person who didn't find this strange at all. Leo is a "Glen" and therefore Jack's enemy due to whatever triggered the Sablier tragedy. Leo is also completely bonkers, went on a destructive rampage in the middle of a city, followed Oz to Pandora in order to cast him back into the Abyss (and he wasn't kidding around about this), and has expressed a willingness to repeat the Sablier tragedy if necessary. He had one moment of clarity where he hesitated and dissipated his uber strong chain, there was no guarantee how long this would last, so why wouldn't Jack take advantage of such an opening? He probably tried to reason with Glen about something like this before and it didn't work, so this time he took the initiative.

As far as Jack is concerned, Leo is "Glen," a very powerful being whose motives and methods Jack doesn't agree with and considers dangerous. Why? We don't yet know. Probably something to do with Lacie, but we don't know specifically what, so I don't think it's fair to judge it.

Precious Hair - San wrote:

If you read that part where Gil remembers Jack was the one who attacked him, Jack was trying to stop Glen. And he wants Oz to kill Leo because he SAYS Glen is bad [can we believe him?], but then why are Glen’s body parts inside the sealing stones? Jack was lying all the time and, as he was one of the few (the only?) survivors of Sablier, no one could say otherwise! Is that it?!

Woah there, it's possible that Jack lied about some things, but the sealing stones weren't one of them. That was Arthur Barma. And, seeing as how Jack didn't want the sealing stones broken, I really doubt that they were sealing his soul instead of Glen. All Jack did was leave behind a diary, and everything in it has been true so far. Jack's growing influence is also correlated to the progression of the B-Rabbit seal, as does his influence over Oz in B-Rabbit mode. (It's theoretically possible that either Jack or Lacie might be the B-Rabbit.)

I think that Jack is essentially like Oz: fundamentally innocent, caring, and sensitive. I also think that all of these qualities, in both Jack and Oz, can be twisted in various ways if they are faced with something that's an affront to their values... namely, a threat to the people they love and want to protect. I think it's generally out of character for Jack to flip out like this, so there had to be some important reason. It's the age-old dilemma of "what drives nice people do bad things." Who is to say that Glen wasn't or isn't trying to do something worse? What sense does it make to call Jack a villain for non-lethally slashing Gil in order to get leverage on Glen, who was massacring a whole mansion/city (including children) from what we know so far - probably to gain control over the Abyss, probably wanting to do something bad to Alice. How do we even judge any of this when we know so little?

Now, I don't really think either Jack or Glen are "wrong." Or, rather, they both are, and we can't see the whole picture without understanding where each is coming from. Jack and Glen have differences in how they see the world, what they want out of it, and what methods they're willing to use to accomplish their goals. I don't see why there is a need to classify heroes and villains. And, when dealing with something as deep and complex as PH, I don't see how the terms even apply. It's a futile attempt to put the characters into little boxes that they don't fit in, and results in a lot of assumptions and overlooking of information.

I'm really disappointed at how quickly and how vehemently the PH community turned on Jack. There's an absurd amount of things we don't know. But we do know that Jun loves to troll, and that she's been trolling since forever. She's still trolling. I say this to myself, too. I think the Tragedy of Sablier was the result of a whole clusterfuck of motives colliding. We've seen apparent blame shift from Glen to Jack, and I don't think it stops there. I think it'll shift to the Barmas. But, if there was any central orchestrating factor, I'm placing my bets on Lacie and the Alices themselves.

Precious Hair - San wrote:

I think RedEyeGhost’s theories are very good (as always)

Thank you. ^_^

Reim Lunettes wrote:

@Precious-hair san I recall that Glen pretty much had a death wish (and also that he was more or less immortal). And I recall Jack saying he didn't want to kill "his best friend". It's possible that Glen agreed to be chopped up and sealed away. That might even be why he ordered the killings at Sablier (because supposedly dead bodies were needed to implement the curse). That was one way he could escape the world that he thought wasn't worth living, without Lacie.

Indeed! That’s a good theory ^^

@ RedEyedGhost
Yes, sure Leo is on the “bad guys” side right now. But, you see, Jack decided to attack him in a moment of weakness; it seemed Leo was almost being called back to reason there! And, do you remember Jack always wanting to keep Oz “clean”? He never wanted him to do the killings, remember with Yura? But with Leo he doesn’t take over immediately like he did with Yura, he tries to convince Oz to do it (well, he eventually knocks him down anyways, but still). That was what surprised me.
I’m not saying Jack doesn’t have good reasons to do what he did, in fact I always believed he did. Even when I say he was the one who killed Alice, I always believed he did that because he was trying to save people. I think he truly believes in this “greater good” (and I’m not sure if he isn’t at least partially right about that…). Back then when I wrote that entry I was just posing all the questions that where raising in my head, that's all.

Yes, about that of the sealing stones sorry, yes, you’re right, of course. He didn’t want them to be broken so it doesn’t make sense it was his soul the one sealed, especially because, apparently, his soul is inside of Oz. Sorry – madly, senseless, rampaging, overwhelmed mind back there, huh.

RedEyedGhost wrote:

I think that Jack is essentially like Oz: fundamentally innocent, caring, and sensitive. I also think that all of these qualities, in both Jack and Oz, can be twisted in various ways if they are faced with something that's an affront to their values... namely, a threat to the people they love and want to protect. I think it's generally out of character for Jack to flip out like this, so there had to be some important reason. It's the age-old dilemma of "what drives nice people do bad things." Who is to say that Glen wasn't or isn't trying to do something worse? What sense does it make to call Jack a villain for non-lethally slashing Gil in order to get leverage on Glen, who was massacring a whole mansion/city (including children) from what we know so far - probably to gain control over the Abyss, probably wanting to do something bad to Alice. How do we even judge any of this when we know so little?

Exactly! That’s just what I meant (but it is possible I didn’t express it efficiently, I was so overwhelmed…). I never believed Jack was THE bad guy. And I still don’t. I always believed he had done bad things under the justification of a greater good.

Jack is such a lovely character isn't he? ^^ I always thought he was a pool of mystery. Turns out I was right all along (even though I didn't have many reasons to believe that) and he is even more mysterious and deep than I initially thought.
I LOVE twisted heroes.


@ RedEyedGhost
You're wellcome ^^

Yeah, I agree with all that. Although I think that back at Yura's mansion, Oz turned back to B-Rabbit mode when he saw a threat from Yura, so Oz wasn't trying to resist Jack stabbing Yura. In this case, Oz was actively resisting him taking over, so he has no choice but to try convincing him to do it. Although, now that Oz is knocked out, Jack can take over and do it himself, thereby still keeping Oz "pure"... sort of... I mean, it's not like Jack has much of a choice than using Oz's body, Jack being disembodied and all.

I like Jack a lot more now! He's getting genuinely interesting. ^_^

Yes, that's right.

^^

OK, I think BOTH Gil and Vince had their behavior brainwashed...
(I was wondering about that in earlier posts, so just following up on it)

So, as far as we know, Vince remembers everything. Gil has amnesia. So far there's no direct evidence that their memories were brainwashed, although some of their behavior probably was: Gil to protect his Master and Vince to stay quiet about Sablier. You can tell by the color of the speech bubbles. Adult Gil shows the influence of the brainwashing here (same color as the speech bubbles before), and adult Vincent shows the influence here (color of the background is the same as the speech bubbles before). Vince was brainwashed by Miranda Barma, and she uses the same hand gesture over Vince's face as the hooded lady did with Gil in order to do that. We don't yet know who the hooded lady who brainwashed Gil was, but she looks as much Barma as Baskerville.

I don't think they're gonna make another season of it. :l
Because they already killed Oz's father. & stuff.
They messed up the ending of the anime series. How lame.

Audria B-Rabbit wrote:

I don't think they're gonna make another season of it. :l
Because they already killed Oz's father. & stuff.
They messed up the ending of the anime series. How lame.

I think you may have replied in the wrong thread.

RedEyedGhost wrote:

[b]Vince was brainwashed by Miranda Barma, and she uses the same hand gesture over Vince's face as the hooded lady did with Gil in order to do that. We don't yet know who the hooded lady who brainwashed Gil was, but she looks as much Barma as Baskerville.

It is the same gesture!!!
I never tought she was brainwashing Vince, tough, but that makes perfect sense. Can we take it for granted that it is the same woman? (I think so.)

I don't think it's the same woman since the one who brainwashed Gil looked really really old. But who knows if Miranda has some kind of glamour sorcery.

Hehehehehe! Sure
If you look for it, you'll see that almost every manga has its Tsunade, you know? LOL

I really wanna know how Jack and (dead) Glen got out of the burning mansion. Especially considering the whole thing fell into the Abyss. I want to see the scene of Jack carrying Glen out with tears in his eyes. Unless Jack was too injured so Arthur Barma & friends had to drag them both out. And then paraded poor miserable Jack around as their token hero before screwing him over too and hiding the evidence.

Can someone help me clarify something. Why is it that in this chapter http://www.mangareader.net/350-24656-10/pandora-hearts/chapter-27.html, Jack introduced himself as Oz Vessalius?

Well, in the compiled volume 7 that I have, the Japanese says "Jack Vessalius," not Oz. But I don't know if the English translators made a mistake or the chapter appeared with "Oz Vessalius" in the initial GFantasy release. Jun has admitted there were mistakes in the GFantasy releases before, such as when Sharon said "Brother Jack" when she meant "Brother Xerx," and it was changed to "Brother Xerx" in the compiled volume.

Oh...thank you RedEyedGhost. It has been bothering me for a long time now (I just kept on forgetting to ask someone about it).

Pfft- >> Sorry. I was thinking in the wrong place.

Wow, this chapter is very intresting!!!

Now, I think this chapters make everythings clear:

Jack is a liar. He said that Glen is the one who need Lacie, and fall in love with her, but actually the one who loved Lacie is Jack. And I think the one who made the Tragedy of Sablier is Jack, but it ended up with a big misunderstanding.
The Pandora thought that Jack, is the one who stop Glen from destroying the Sablier. But actually, Glen was trying to stop Jack from destroying the Sablier, but he ended up dead and his body has been sealed by the sorcerers and the four dukes.

About Lacie, well.... She's the Will of Abyss. I think that Lacie has been made as a sacrifice to open the Pandora box. But, during the sacrifice ceremonial, there's something wrong and Lacie has gone. The peoples thought that Lacie has already dead, but she entered the Abyss and be the Will of Abyss.

And, after that sacrifice thingy. There's a black haired girl named Alice come to Glen's mansion. Glen lock her in the tower and Jack know that she's a girl to open the gate of Abyss. Then, Jack pretend to be nice to her, until the Tragedy of Sablier happened.

Gah!! I've missed so much!
I need to read all of it! Man... So much for School. -.-

Ahh this is rather late, so interesting reading everyones theories- I don’t have anything to add to them except...
I wonder how much Cheryl is in on this, surely Barma must know the power of her chain! What part did the Rainsworth family play in the Tragedy? Present time they seem pretty aligned with the Barma household was it the same back then?
We haven’t focused on Alice and her memories for a long time- and she said she let up searching for them (what page was that again?) but she seems to know that the advancing seal is dangerous to her... perhaps she has picked up some along the way that she hasn’t let on?
That scene where Gil protected Vince... was that a memory? Perhaps Gil protected Vince from something in the past and that is what Vince feels responsible for.
and why are the Baskervilles so completely clueless!!
Interesting that Jack had the Power to kill the Baskervilles in the flashback pg 59-60 I assume that’s B-Rabbits power but it’s also Madhatters power...